"You Wan-na Talk of Ev-olu-tiooon (Wellll You Knooow)" Dept.
The following are some comments from a discussion list. After pointing out the difference between development of doctrine and evolution of doctrine the following assertions (in italics) were made. I will respond to them in order.
But, let us not quibble here. We both agree that what Cardinal Newman described in his work is mere development, which Pope Pius XII also touched upon. The evolution of dogma is a fantasy of the Modernists, as Pope Saint Pius X clearly said, and "the sythesis of all heresies" depends upon it.
Correct. But it is important to point out that all heresies have their grains of truth in them. With Modernism it was the notion that practices of the Church could be modified according to the circumstances according to the judgment of the Church. (A point I might add that Trent noted in Session XXI when discussing the norms of sacramental administration.)
You know as well as I do that Cardinal Newman's treatise was perfectly in line with what was stated by both Saint Vincent of Lerins and by Pope Pius XII...The expression of a dogma may change, but its meaning can never change.
Correct.
At the same time, having talked to you for a few years now, I also understand that you hold to the theories put forward by the evolutionary scientists.
I accept certain models of evolution as
viable theses. I have not made an assertion at any time which position I actually "hold" and do not intend to. It is an irrelevant and divisive subject to discuss when one dogmatizes theological opinions and goes beyond what the Church specifies are the boundaries of safe speculation.
Thus for this reason and because this does not fall within the areas where my knowledge is either substantial or extensive, I wisely observe reverent silence as a theologian is supposed to do in these circumstances. I touch on this at
this blog entry though in brief. I do not intend to take it beyond that point.
Also, that you have constantly refused to seriously study the theories and discoveries of other scientists in the world --all of them with equal credentials to the evolutionists; that is, PhD's and tenures at Universities-- who uphold the literal meaning of the Holy Scriptures in Genesis.
I have reiterated many times that the literal meaning of any text is not necessarily the same one that a person reading the text imposes upon it. This is why "syllabus style" statements can be dangerous when they fall into the wrong hands. See the following blog entry for part of one of our emails that I blogged on that very subject:
The Benefits and Dangers of 'Syllabus' Style Statements
Are you, then, implying that the consensus of the Fathers on the six literal 24 hour days of creation, as well as the statement by Pope Leo XIII upholding this same belief, can be "developed" into millions and billions of years? To say as much is to merely substitute the word "developed" for "utterly repudiated". Not only that, but even though the PBC allowed one to dispense with the word "day" as a literal "day", they did not specify in exactly which verses one could do that.
Au contrare!!! The PBC in a June 30, 1909 decree stated the following (all emphasis is mine):
The first three chapters of Genesis contain narratives of real events, no myths, no mere allegories or symbols of religious truths, no legends.
In regard to those facts, which touch the foundations of the Christian religion, the literal historical sense is to be adhered to. Such facts are, inter alia, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time, and the special creation of humanity.
It is not necessary to understand all words and sentences in the literal sense. Passages which are variously interpreted by the Fathers and theologians, may be interpreted according to one's own judgment, with the reservation, however, that one submits one's own judgment to the decision of the Church, and to the dictates of the Faith.
As the Sacred Writer had not the intention of representing with scientific accuracy the intrinsic constitution of things, and the sequence of the works of creation but of communicating knowledge in a popular way suitable to the idiom and to the pre-scientific development of his time, the account is not to be regarded or measured as if it was couched in language which is strictly scientific.
The word "day" need not be taken in the literal sense of a natural day of 24 hours, but can be understood in the improper sense of a longer space of time.
That is 99% of the decree right there. (I left off the Denzinger numbers because I tire of the way Denzinger is treated akin to how the Prot treats the Bible in "tradland".)
So that the term "improper sense" is not misunderstood, it is a reference to metaphor. See
this link where the traditional 4 senses theology is discussed.
Therefore, to be prudent, one should rely on the Text to determine where this allowable. Leaving aside all of your evolutionary bias, can you make the case, using only the Text of Genesis 1 itself, as well as any documents of the Church dealing specifically with this Text, that the word "yom", day, should not be taken as a literal day?
I refer you to what I have already said. I have made no stated position on this subject and all I will say on it publicly is that my position is full conformity with the binding decree from the 1909 PBC commission - which I might add was an arm of the magisterium at the time.
Again, are you, by your continued defense of evolutionism, implying that the dogma of an actual Adam, formed from the slime of the earth on this sixth literal day, can now be "developed" into a theology that sees Adam as a brute caveman, or as a metaphor for many such brutes, one and all subject to death and disease whether they sinned or not? To say as much is to not only go against an express teaching of the Church, but to bring down the penalty of anathema upon yourself!
I have told you time and time and TIME again that I endorse monogenism. I really wish you would quit inferring that I do not. How many times do I have to repeat myself before you GET it??? (This is about the twentieth time in three years I have told you this. My fuse with you on this subject is used up now so stop it please.)
And why is it that whenever there is a conflict between this so-called "science" of evolutionism and divine Revelation, the Holy Scriptures are always offered upon the altar of sacrifice, while the foundationless philosophies which drive these neo-pagan theologies are left sacrosanct?
There can be no conflict between faith and reason. And if reason presents to us a situation where the faith has been silent, then there is nothing wrong with adjusting the glasses through which we presuppose that we understand the Faith in the areas where dogma and doctrine are not settled.
We are not fideists and fideism was condemned by Vatican I. Because of this, I really wish you would not advance notions which are akin to fideism.
It is high time you and the Mark Shea's and the SAM's and the Bill Bannon's of the world took stock of this situation.
We already do.
The Church stands or falls on the Second Adam.
Correct.
Make the First Adam a myth, and the Second Adam becomes a myth as well.
No one has made the First Adam a myth.
Jesus said: "I have come to restore all things." A worthless statement if all Adam fell from was the trees!
Adam's soul was specially created by God. The Church has left the issue of creation of the body open as do I and all faithful Catholics. Please do not go beyond the boundaries set by Holy Mother Church.
The evolutionists understand this principle well, and have said so on numerous occasions.
I do not care what these "evolutionists" you refer to say. Because (a) not all pagan knowledge is false or without worth as Church history shows us (b) there is more than one theory of evolution so your constant references to a monolithic entity is really quite facile and (c) you should not be so quick to presume that anyone or everyone that stays within the boundries of Church-transcribed theological speculation who does not agree with you is either wrong or not entitled to their opinions.
I am saddened that men of such intellect as yourselves cannot see all the damage these philosophies of naturalism and uniformitarianism are doing to the Christian philosophy.
I reiterate: you have used up my last bit of fuse on the issue of polygenism. Neither, Mark, nor SAM, nor myself profess a belief in polygenism. Nor does Bill actually do this if I am not mistaken. (He simply points to Grisez' position on the subject. I have told Bill that Grisez - as good of a theologian as he is - is in error on this point.) To my knowledge Bill has not actually embraced this notion.
Please stop erecting straw man viz my position on this issue. Your constancy in doing this would wear on the best of saints and I am not of that calibre. (Yet, God-willing in time I and all on this list will be.) I do not like having to chastise good friends on these matters but when my position is egregiosly misrepresented in public, they must be rebuked in public. And I serve notice to you now that on this one issue I will not rebuke you politely in the future if it is raised again either explicitly or by implication. Consider this note to be a monitum on that score.
Labels: Dialogues, Theological