On the Pope, Moral Principles, the UN, and Stephen Hand:
(A Dialogue)
My words in this exchange will be in regular font with all sources in darkblue font. My previous words in purple font. All other words will be from the one who sent me this email -their sources in the same font but italicized.
Hi XXXXX:
I will probably blog a version of this to
Rerum Novarum because (i) I do not like to as a rule muse without the weblog and (ii) this exchange does allow me to clarify some points on these matters. However, your name will be omitted for confidentiality sake.
Well, that may be true but the US is frankly hypocritical in its stand on Iraq in light of the moral degeneracy that we allow. If I was a Muslim living in the Middle East and I saw what the United States was exporting to my people, I would probably join Al Queda too. The idea that the Muslims are rejecting westernization" in the realm of technology and the like is bunk. They are rejecting the immorality element being exported to them. They do not want their daughters to become sluts and their wives to become paramours.
Shawn, I am actually surprised that you would use this argument. Following the line of reasoning you posit here about if you were a Muslim living in the Middle East you would probably join Al Qaeda, due to the immorality the US exports, you would have to say that if you were a Catholic living in the US, you would probably join SSPX or some other schismatic or heretical group because of all the sexual abuse scandals and the refusal of the bishops to really do something substantive about it. You would also have to say, viz. the same line of reasoning, that the Church is being hypocritical preaching chastity while all this is going on.
To take your points in sequence:
1) I
was in fact affiliated with the SSPX for about fifteen years -and some of it was due to what you note above about the weakness of the bishops in addressing abuses in their dioceses. However, every movement has its extremists.
Al Queda just happens to be the extremists of the Muslim contingent. And to some Muslims undoubtedly, they are a means in their minds to achieving an end of western corruption in their societies. Remember, the dictum that "the end does not justify the means" is part of Catholic moral principles, not Muslim moral principles. Hence, I can say that
if I was a Muslim I could act as I noted there and probably would. But as a Catholic I cannot.
The same is the case with the death penalty: if I was not a Catholic I would be railing for hangings at high noon every day. But as I am, I do not do these things.
2) If I took your stand I would have to weigh in against America for the monumental abuses to the Constitution that happen daily. As per the faith, GK Chesterton noted once that "Christianity is not tried and found wanting, it was not tried" and that is the problem with the scandals you refer to as well as the problems on the political landscape that you see. The root problem in both cases is the same.
You and I know damned well that Al Qaeda's beef with us has nothing to do with moral degeneracy we allow or our exportation of it. Al Qaeda attracts some of the worst moral reprobates, not only in terms of their penchant for violence, but also in their sexual proclivities, to its ranks.
So does the ultra-ultra-fringe of the radtrads. Did you know there are cults on the fringes of "traditionalism" that actually exempt their leaders from the moral code of Catholicism by a "special dispensation from God" or a "special dispensation of the Blessed Virgin"??? This is par for the course with the ultra-ultra fringes of any movement and Al Queda is the ultra-ultra fringe of militant Islam.
We now know that some of the 9/11 hijackers were in nudie bars getting drunk...just days before the attacks. I guess you can say that they were just warming up for the 72 virgins in paradise.
I never said that there was a lacuna of hypocrisy amongst the ultra-ultra fringe of militant Islam.
Actually, the rejection of westernization in the realm of technology on the part of radical Muslims DOES have some credibility when you consider the rather squalored conditions the Taliban forced the Afghani people to live in.
True.
Furthermore, they don't have to worry about us turning their daughters into sluts and and wives into paramours. They already beat us to it. Look at the way women are treated in Muslim cultures. If men being able to have harems is not turning their daughters into sluts and wives into paramours, nothing is.
Well, you are essentially casting aspersions on the Old Testament Patriarchs for doing the same thing then. Since Abraham, Jacob, David, and others are saints in our tradition. Yet all of them had multiple wives -in David's case about five hundred of them. If merely having many wives means that one is turning them into paramours then God sanctioned David doing this. (See 2 Samuel xii,7-8.) I would revise your argument for that reason my friend.
To add insult to injury, the women are forced to dress completely veiled to give the whole thing an appearance of modesty (Now granted, one is tempted to want to give Hiilary Clinton and Patricia Ireland a one-way ticket to Saudi Arabia for a little attitude adjustment and that Monica Lewinsky would look more attractive in a burhka than a thong, but that's beside the point.)
I concur with both points there :)
America, despite its serious moral problems, doesn't have the drop on the Islamic Middle East in the immorality department.
We promote artificial contraception, abortion, and euthanasia as
sacraments. Need I say more???
Furthermore, I think the US, again, despite its own grave faults, is morally superior to the naysaying anti-war European types.
See my previous comments.
Ever been to Europe?
Not yet.
When I was in Italy a few years ago, I couldn't believe how pornographic their billboard signs were. They make ours look like paragons of modesty (and ours are in no way modest, of course). And when liberals like Alan Colmes say that Europe is more enlightened than America regarding sexual attitudes, you know we have the drop on them in the chastity department, and, of course America is not a chaste country, by any stretch of the imagination, unfortunately.
Remember though, we are the leaders of the free world whether we like it or not. Therefore, we have a greater responsibility in this area than the rest of the world since in many ways they follow our lead. Claude Frederic Bastiat said in the 1840's that if freedom dies in America that it would die all over the world. And freedom -authentic freedom I mean- is dying in this country my friend.
Wanna know what I think the radical Islam's main beef with the US is? You might find this laughable, but I think radical Islam sees the US as the economic and political epicenter of Judeo-Christianity. And that's the issue right there. Why else would they constantly saddle us with the pro-Israel Crusader moniker.
This is a factor too. It is a complex mosaic not done justice to with the kind of simplistic theories propounded by many people -even so-called "intellectual elites."
Don't get me wrong, I do not in any way wish to downplay the seriousness of America's moral plight viz. the war on terror. But it must understood in its proper perspective. We didn't get attacked nor are we still being threatened because of our export of immorality.
We were attacked because (i) we have been leading the world in promoting decadence and (ii) we failed for a long time to show backbone in the face of much smaller assaults on us. The terrorists know that if they can make us grovel that the rest of the world will follow suit.
But our ability to defeat terrorism is going to depend, in large part, on our moral health. Remember the words of Alexis de Toucqeville "America will be great only as long it is good." (Gee, the French were actually good for something other than being a diplomatic pain in the ass at one time.) A morally lax people will not endure the sacrifices that this war on terror will require.
True. Have you read my weblog series on
Claude Frederic Bastiat yet??? He essentially concurred with his collegue de Toucqeville in that area but took it further in proposing what was needed to maintain authentic freedom in society. He did this at the heighth of the Revolution of 1848 in France and virtually no one listened. If they had, the world would be a lot better place today than it is.
I have based numerous related arguments on these theories including my
defense of the three fundamental rights of man, ideas for differentiating between
legitimate rights and legitimate freespeech from the various counterfeits, and even my ideas for
rider reform have a foundation in these theories. It would be impossible to list all the areas where this has applied over the years in my arguments though
I have a fairly complete list of explicit references from this weblog in its first fourteen months in the archives somewhere. Since then, the number of posts in this area has increased since it is 2004 and I am preparing for the election early. (To try and have
some influence on the election even if only in a minor way.)
The 2000 race was a photofinish literally and I do not expect 2004 to be much different. It
could have been a pretty convincing win but Bush is shooting his re-election bid in the head over and over because of a serious bout of the
rovehaze. Only if the Democratic nominee really screws up in some way will it avoid being a close race at this point. But more importantly than who is president is who we elect to congress.
The entire House and one third of the Senate is up for re-election. I would love to see at least one significant congressman endorse my
rider reform proposal as one step in the right direction to fixing the problems in this country -as it would put a heavy check on backdoor porkbarrel dealing. But I digress.
In short, there are a lot of ways to deal with what is wrong in this country and the moral angle is one of them (and it is important of course). But as laws are the last vestage of the unruly, I fear we need to have the laws reinforced first. Moral turnarounds generally take a while barring some significant Divine intervention. But if we can at least shore up and inculcate into people's minds the difference between the law properly utilized and the law perverted, that will be a strong foundation for rebuilding society's shattered moral compass.{1}
During the American Revolution, the colonialists never doubted that they would be victorious over the British. You know why? It sure wasn't because they believed that they were better trained or better equipped. It was because they believed that they were MORALLY SUPERIOR to the British Army, which they were. They discovered by fighting along side them during the French and Indian War and by observing those troops stationed in the new World that they (the British) were moral reprobates. They got drunk, chased women, and even committed murder.
True.
The moral sensitivity of our military has unfortunately become much like that of the Lobster Bellies, sans the murder. I had a first hand exposure to this (and I admit shamefully that I engaged in it, again sans the murder) during my eight years in the Navy. So, noone can tell me that the Church's teaching on sexual morality is just mythical speculation of a bunch of cranky celibates locked in the Vatican. I know through bitter experience that the Church is dead on in the area of sexuality.
So did I though not in the same way as you. (As I never served in the military.)
And since the military plays, arguably, the most important role in the war on terror, this is a cause of grave concern. Along with their unwillingness to build up our military in terms of personnel, the seeming lack of alarm at the rampant social engineering going on is a grave defect in this Administration's military policy. And I say that as one who has a great respect for Don Rumsfeld. Some of political and ecclesiastical leaders can take a few lessons from him on how to handle the media.
I agree with you that Rumsfeld is one of the jewels of Bush's cabinet.
Yes but the Vatican's main point of emphasis is the realm of morals and the US has no cause for throwing any stones in that area despite the pretensions of Bush and company.
Well, I would have to say that the refusal to honor one's word viz. resolutions and gravytraining the sufferings of the Iraqi people are serious moral issues. And the silence of Vatican diplomats on those two issues inflicts a serious wound to the Vatican's credibility in being a moral force on the geopolitical scene. I would also have to say that the US has acted more responsibly in the Iraq situation than Cdl. Martino and company. Heck, even the NCCB's statement on the Iraq war showed a greater sense of responsibility than that of many Vatican officials. And admitting that the NCCB acted more responsibly than the Vatican is something I don't even like to entertain as a thought, much openly acknowledge. But remember what I said about calling them as I see them.
I happen to have predicted the Vatican's position on this before it was made known by Zenit. This is at bottom a case of the pope taking the same approach of consistency that he does with capital punishment. See
this link for details:
[Stephen] tries to be very careful in light of his own Integrist past on these matters. Plus, he is I believe a pacifist which is (of course) fine. I have respect for conscientious objectors such as [Stephen] while having *no* respect for the Moveon.org crowd. The difference between the two is the difference between legitimate difference of opinion and sedition.
I can understand being careful not to openly criticize the Vatican. One of the reasons why I have requested that these e-mails stay private for the time being is that I am a little gunshy when it comes to criticizing the Vatican myself.
I blogged this one (but not all of it) because I believe your view on this is one that a fair amount of people have. I also removed your name from the text so confidentiality would be assured.
I have no problem with someone taking issue with the war, although I supported it.
As did I. My stance there has not wavered -though admittedly I am less pleased with the whole process than I was a year ago.{2}
But there is no excuse for the cheapshotish way [Stephen] went about expressing his difference of opinion viz. the piece in question.
I looked at the entry you mention and though I do not concur with more than maybe half of it, I only saw two points which I would take issue with from the standpoint of viable opinions. The issue about Bush and serving in Vietnam was one of them. The other was this one:
The U.S. would be more credible if it acted to rid itself of its own---the world's largest--- stockpile of nuclear and biological weapons (we are, afterall, the only nation on earth which has invented, sold and used such weapons against whole civilian populations, including the most Catholic city in Japan) and when it intervenes against its own interests (oil or otherwise) on behalf of disinterested righteousness.
The fact that Japan and Germany were trying to come up with these weapons and we simply did so first -and the fact that a million US soldiers would probably have died in a land invasion of Japan- are enough to deal with the complaint about our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As far as chemical weapons go, (i) we never used them -at least not since the Geneva protocols after WWI and (ii) our possession of them during WWII prevented Hitler from using them. This is a documented fact and is not even debatable. That is some of the value of deterrance.
Does this mean that we should still have them??? This is hard to say since if terrorists get their hands on chemical weapons, we without them are stuck with either conventional or nuclear options to oppose them and no middle ground. I prefer to have that middle ground option myself. This is not Manifest Destiny on my part, merely a recognition of what Bastiat noted a hundred and fifty years ago: if freedom dies in America it will die everywhere else.
If that eminent French economist and statesman -and probably the greatest exponent of authentic freedom in history-{3} recognized this fact back then, we should be asking ourselves (i) why we do not recognize it now and (ii) why we are so docile in the face of the freedoms we have lost and those we are in the process of losing as I write this.
In summary, those two points aside, I have no problems with Stephen's editorial from the standpoint of legitimate differences of opinion. If you want to write a Guest Editorial on it for
Rerum Novarum, I have no objections and will gladly post it for you. However, I will offer Stephen equal time to respond to it.
Notes:
{1} Along with these aims would be supplying proper definitions for such nebulously utilized terms such as "rights" and "freespeech" and confuting the idea that something becomes moral or immoral by virtue of a law being passed that sanctions or forbids it.
{2} In light of recent questions about the accuracy of Powell and company's comments at the time, I was wise to restrict my position at the time to exclude those comments. Thus, unlike a lot of partisans on this issue (i.e
this one) I have not fallen on my face and had to do an about face.
{3} Oh and yes, he was Catholic too.