"From the Mailbag" Dept.(On Distributivism)
The emailer's words will be in darkgreen font.
Shawn,
I wanted to share some thoughts on your recent posts regardind distributivism. I do not consider myself a distributivist. My observations do not really come from reading Chesterton or Belloc. My observations come more from my time reading about a 19th century strains of libertarianism known as mutualism and georgism, which seem to have some (at least facial) simialrity to distributivism. Ok.
I think that reading through the dialogue, the main issue is what constitutes "property" and what constitutes "theft". How was property first obtained? If a person made a fense and said "all land herein is mine", is that necessarily his property?
This is a very good question. Ultimately we either operate under a rule of law or a rule of the jungle. I for one prefer the rule of law with the caveat that the rule of law does not precede the fundamental rights of man. Nor are the fundamental rights of man derived from law. Instead they are God-given.{1} Property can change hands in a variety of ways and there is a variety of what can be constituted as "property" with land but one facet of the equation.{2}
Then they found other people and paid them to work the land, and took the produce of the work. Some would say that this is theft of the product of the worker who was prevented from owning the land he works because someone else who never worked the land found some way to claim the property as his.The problem with your analysis would appear to lie in the idea that ownership depends on the individual or their family physically working the land. If this is applied across the entire spectrum of what constitutes "property" without arbitrary constrictions on the matter as you will undoubtedly do (even if you are not conscious of doing it), then there is not and cannot be ownership of anything whatsoever.
According to mutualists such as Benjamin Tucker, one cannot own property that one does not personally occupy or use. This analysis implies that one has to make use of what they own and therefore they do not really own it. Ownership involves the right to make use of what is owned in the manner the owner determines. There are obviously some limitations to this approach{3} but morally not many.
Once you justly obtain possession of land, it is yours, and any charge of rent is plunder and theft.Then it is not yours. If it was then if you want to charge others who want to make use (within certain limits) of your land, what are you plundering from them??? The answers is: nothing. Plunder involves taking from others what is not yours and giving it to someone else. If there is an agreement between you and me for you to work my land for a fee that you pay me, there is no plunder. Or as Claude Frederic Bastiat noted in
The Law:
[H]ow is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. [Excerpt from The Law (circa 1850) as quoted in a Rerum Novarum posting (circa May 7, 2005)]How does one identify "just possession" in your view of things??? Furthermore, if you own the land, how are you plundering those who want to make use of your land by paying you for the privilege to do so (within certain limits)???
Illegal plunder is if you steal my property and either keep it or give it to someone else. Legal plunder is the same thing except with the government doing it. Either way plunder is heinous and contrary to a fundamental right of man. But if you agree to pay me for the privilege of using my property, there is no plunder because you have given consent to pay me to use my property and I have given my consent for you to do so. As long as what we are doing does not break any legitimate laws (such as me allowing you to use my property to set up a crack house), there is nothing illegal or immoral in what we would be doing.
I will go to the example that is mentioned in the post. That is where the twenty families owned all of Taiwan, and then there was land reform. According to your theory such land reform is plunder and theft.Not necessarily. It depends on how it is gone about. If the government stole the property and gave it to someone else, that is plunder which is theft. If however, I of my own choice gave you some of my property, there is no plunder involved at all because I acted of my own free choice on the matter with my own property in giving it to you.
However, I think that the distributivists and mutualists may have a plausable claim that the fact that twenty families owned all of Taiwan is in itself plunder and theft of property belionging to others.This is a presupposition they do not bother to prove. Barring certain legitimate enactions of
eminent domain,{3} those families have a right to their property. If they owned the property then there is no plunder whatsoever if they consent to either sell or give it to someone else.
The paragraph of Leo's enciclycal that seems to be bantered about so much starts with the sentence expressing the sentiment that every person has the right to own land.
Yes but this does not mean they have the right to take someone else's land or have someone else take it and give it to them.
However, if twenty people own all the land in Taiwan, nobody else on the island has the right to own any land without their permission.
You assume that they are stuck on Taiwan and cannot go elsewhere. My ancestors were not allowed to own land either in Ireland or the Ukraine. They solved that problem by moving to a place where they were able to acquire land of their own in various legitimate ways.
Once I was a very traditional type of American Libertarian. I read Friedman, Rothbard, and Rand (not exactly Catholic, I know).
I am not going to criticize you for that. I have read a lot of sources on various subjects and not all of them are Catholic either. Frankly, most of what passes for "economics" written by Catholics I do not find very inspiring or impressive. Catholic writers can be quite good at outlining broad principles which are important for considering when looking into a panoply of issues. However, when it comes to application, some of it leaves a lot to be desired for a variety of reasons too numerous to go into here.
However, eventually I came to realize that a landlord, in a way, is a government.
This is true; however it is also false. Governments are institutions established by man but the right to property is a fundamental right from God. It is because of the fundamental rights of man that governments were established to begin with: to protect those rights from usurpation by others.
If twenty people own all the land in Taiwan, they might as well be the government. They can tell everyone else what to do because it is their land!
Within certain limits, yes but only on their own property.
So much for freedom!
You have a few presuppositions to your outlook here which I want to highlight briefly. First of all, you are presuming that there is a finite pie here. (Taiwan is not the only land on earth.) Second, you are presuming that there is no freedom involved here for these people to go elsewhere -essentially you are saying they have to stay where they are indefinitely. Are they somehow constrained from moving???
While I have much sympathy for your view, I am beginning to see that theories such as distributivism (and similar theories) may have much more plausibility.
So stealing from someone to give to another person "may have much more plausibility" to you??? That is a disturbing thought because if you do not defend the fundamental rights of man, then everything else is arbitrary. Either there are certain fundamental rights which are God-given and which governments are established to protect or all rights are derived from government. You have implied support for the latter and that is the seed from which all totalitarianist forms of government grow. I hope you are willing to reconsider that in your assessment of these matters.
Notes:
{1} A Collection of Threads on Claude Frederic Bastiat's Theory of the Three Fundamental Rights of Man and the Role of Law in a Just Society -Spanning October 31, 2003 through January 5, 2007 (circa January 19, 2007)
There is also a link in that posting to a similar thread collection from August 25, 2002 through October 30, 2003.
{2} There is by some categorizations three types of property: real property (land), personal property (other items), and intellectual property.
{3} This is a matter which requires significant care because of the rampant abuse that can come about by it. However, there is some rationale where it can be properly utilized and I noted one such example in one of the previous threads on distributivism earlier this year:
A person can do with their property what they like within certain limits. One of those limits is what is called the "common good" which Bastiat recognized at least implicitly in his 1850 synthesis. Another is a concept that did not explicitly exist in Bastiat's time but which is a Catholic principle incorporated into Dignitatis Humanae and that is what is called "just public order." The latter is an objective verifying criteria to balance out the criteria of "common good" which to some extent (and taken by itself) is prone to subjectivist rationale.[...]
For example, if I wanted to build a nuclear reactor on my property (assuming I could), the state would have a right to deny me my project because of the endangering of the common good of my neighbours under what can be called "just public order" resulting from my endeavour. However, if the state wanted to take my property and give it to Walmart to build another super mall, that would be a violation of my right to property and a perversion of law. The reason for the latter is it would be the taking of private property to sell to another party which does not involve the common good but instead the enrichment of the latter party at the expense of the former. At least in the extraordinary circumstances in which eminent domain can be justified the beneficiary in question is the public at large. [Excerpt from Rerum Novarum (circa May 31, 2007)]