Brief Response and a Request to Tim Enloe:
Tim's words will be in black font. This will constitute a partial response to what he wrote
HERE -the incomplete nature of the response being due to time factors and also because of a desire to focus on one subject matter in this thread.{1} Any sources I quote will be in darkblue font.
If you're not all that interested in Roman Catholic issues, you should probably just skip this entry. The following is a reply to a post Shawn M. made to me in this comments box. Shawn's comments are in all italics.
My previous words will be black font italics for this post.
And just because something is "challenged" does not make it illegitimate. Jesus' credentials were continually challenged by his enemies amongst the Scribes and Pharisees. The fact that they challenged Him does not mean that He was not whom He claimed to be. If this was the case with the Lord, why should it be any different for his Vicar who is merely the chamberlain for the king???
Shawn, this statement is mere question-begging.
It addresses the point that you often (consciously or otherwise) seem to imply: that the challenge of a position in and of itself means that the challenger has a viable alternative position. My point is, if Jesus Christ Himself did not go unchallenged, then no lessor authority could expect to. I know that you hold the pope to be of lessor authority than God Incarnate. Yet as the challenges to the latter did not make his claims invalid or dubious, the same can reasonably be seen as the case in the claims made by the popes. This does not constitute a defense of the popes Tim, only an appeal to you to not apply your rationale so selectively.
How would you take it if I answered a point you made about Christian political theory's relevance to Vatican I papalism by saying, "Just because something is asserted does not make it legitimate."
I would say you are right. And of course non-believers say the same thing about Jesus Christ's divinity. It rests as any view does on an assertion being made -which in and of itself does not mean that it is true.
I find this to be probably the single greatest flaw of the papalist position--it's simple inability to grasp that rational disagreement with its principles really is possible.
There is no "inability to grasp" this involved Tim. If Catholics did not have an ability to understand that there are possible differences of viewpoint, then our defense of the binding obligation that even an erroneous conscience has would be non-existent. (Binding to the extent that the person honestly believes that they are right.)
This is why I took exception to your post from months ago wherein you cited a Catholic scholar chiding the rest of the world for supposedly failing to consider that papalism might actually be "the divinely-willed order of things."
That was a "points to ponder" segment. They are usually short and are intended to engender my readers to muse on the particular point posted. I do not even have to agree with a statement to post it under "points to ponder" though I usually do.
The segment you refer to was a simple offhand comment by Thomas F.X. Noble expressing an approach to the papacy issue that those who oppose themselves to the papacy never stop and consider. How such a statement constitutes a "chiding" is beyond me.
Why can't you Catholics grasp the fact that it's most often YOU who are guilty of failing to comprehend the basis of any other theory, because ALL you can see is your blazing "self-evident" Thomistic truisms and their echoes of Neoplatonic Forms.
You like to bring up Neoplatonism and criticize various forms of Realism a lot Tim. That is of course your right to do so; however my interest is not in defining myself
against the positions of others per se but instead in setting forth my own arguments on their respective merits. For this reason, I am going to request at this time that you do likewise on the subject I am about to reiterate: set forth your own position on the matter of "universals."
For that seems to be the common base of your theological/historical musings. I therefore make a respectful inquiry yet again as to which outlook on universals that *you* embrace. If it is not Realism in some form or another, then that leaves Nominalism and Conceptualism as the only other variant views of the concept of "universals" that come to my mind.
For as I have noted in
other places, I see serious
functional problems with both nominalism and conceptualism viz their
application in reality as opposed to in the abstract. And if you are going to base your theory on either of those outlooks, it therefore stands to reason that you should acknowledge the significant weaknesses of your paradigm in doing so.
For you want to harrangue realism and its variants but every time I have raised a discussion of your operative point of view viz. universals, it has gone unresponded to. I believe that it is because our responses can be quite lengthy and therefore it is not possible to respond to everything there. For that reason, I will cut this response short and refer you back to the various posts where I have written on this subject. For this point gets to the very
root and matrix of your entire outlook and knowledge of your tendencies here can go a long way towards people seeing things as you see them.{2}
Here are the related threads in sequential order from oldest (September 2003) to newest (December 2003).
On Papal Primacy and Church History --Part I (Societas Christiana vs. Rerum Novarum)
On Papal Primacy and Church History --Part II (Societas Christiana vs. Rerum Novarum)
"The Enloe Files" Dept. (Part I --Recapitulation of Dialogue Themes)
I realize they are long and there is a lot gone over in them. You may also find in scanning them that I brought up a point or three that you either did not see before or feel you can more adequately respond to now for whatever reason. I ask that you not do that and instead focus only on the parts of the above threads that deal with nominalism, conceptualism, and realism.
For you can say all you want about what history "says" to me and to others but different people read the same subjects and events differently. Unless you are going to utilize the same dogmatism on subjects that you claim that Catholics use, you will have to do more than simply list a bunch of historical events (or texts from medieval writers) and assert that they justify your theory.
I remind you that a text without a context is a pretext. And as you reject the realist outlook and continually opine against it and against anything related to it (such as so-called "biblical platonism"), I do not believe it is unreasonable to request for you to outline what your differing philosophical view from these points are, why it differs, and to do so with perspicuity.
If whatever I or others write is immediately tagged as "realist" by you -which is a convenient escape hatch as I see it- how about putting your own
weltanschauung up for similar scrutiny??? For I believe you have confidence in your theory and that it will hold up under reasonable scrutiny when it is completed. Surely as that is the case -or else you would not be spending so much time on it- you can at the very least outline in a reasonable manner your differing view from realism in the area of "universals."
This process if you undertake it would (I believe) make it much easier for you to anticipate in advance (and thus reasonably avoid) the criticism that will come from some corners. Essentially people will say (and I predict this in advance I might add) that you criticize the foundational tenants of others outlooks without setting forth the manner whereby you approach the same issues. This will get you summarily dismissed by other people who will see this as an example of epistemologically trying to "have your cake and eat it too." (Or trying to avoid answering the same queries for your theories that you think others should have to answer for theirs.)
For your interest in setting forth a probable theory into the arena of ideas must involve the same kind of disclosure for it to be given its just due by others who are interested in the truth as you would expect of them in advancing theories of their own. As I have noted
elsewhere:
[D]ialogue must involve (i) clarity for the person being addressed (ii) an absence of arrogance or offensive terminology (iii) confidence in our own words and the good faith of all parties involved and (iv) the prudence to make allowances for the psychological and moral circumstances of his hearer recognizing that not all audiences will accept something in the same sense. (For this reason, adaptation of the manner of presentation to the best advantage of the other party is necessary.) [I. Shawn McElhinney: On the Intricacies of Dialogue - A Commentary (c. 2003)]
The reason the dialogue is not easy is because few are the people who take any subject seriously who have an interest in engaging those who refuse to set out their own "boundary markers" and/or to clarify key points of their operative viewpoint if you will. This makes it very difficult for people to properly see things -even if only for a moment- from the other person's viewpoint.{3}
Your response is critical of a preceived "inability" of myself or others to see things from other people's viewpoints. I find this ironic in that much of my criticisms of so-called "traditionalists" and so-called "progressivists" are precisely for this reason. They have no interest in being understood or of being bridge-building. Instead it is only in their own visions of being "truely more reformed than thou" but in their own ways{4} that they want to be accepted.
Now I know that
you are genuinely interested in bridge-building;{5} therefore I appeal to your own concerns for the revitilization of the
societas Christiana to please do what is requested of you here. At the very least it will make it easier to know how you are approaching these issues.
Notes:
{1} I am sure my faithful readers are stunned to see a thread from me on only *one* subject ;-)
{2} I cannot see any dialogue on our respective theories of papal primacy as bearing fruit without this being raised antecedent to such a discussion.
{3}
To tell the truth, it is very difficult to carry on a dialogue: Many dialogues, even of Plato are fictitious, juxtapositions of monologues. Each stays as they were. This is so often what happens at assemblies and congresses. The true dialogue demands an effort which is continual and almost heroic, which consists first in trying to see from the other's viewpoint. Leibniz, that mind so open and elastic, said that the position of the other is the true viewpoint of politics and morals, and this going out of oneself to adopt --if only for a moment--the point of view of one's interlocutor he calls quite simply: love. [Jean Guitton: Dialogues of Paul VI With Jean Guitton pg. 163 circa. 1967 (as quoted in I. Shawn McElhinney's commentary On the Intricacies of Dialogue (c. 2003)]
{4} In the case of the self-styled "traditionalist" it is usually "more Traditional than thou" and with the self-styled "progressivist" it is "more Enlightened than thou." But the underlying theme to both positions is the same.
{5} For why would you be going through the efforts you are doing at your weblog -only to be on the receiving end of slings and arrows from former "friends" of yours- if this was not the case???
Labels: Dialogues, Reason/Logic/Ethics, The Good/The Bad/The Ugly -Apologetics