"Musings on the Fight Game" Dept.
This is a post written some time ago in response to an email I received about the Rerum Novarum post located HERE. The words of the interlocutor will be in red font.
Shawn:
Hi XXXXXXX:
After reading your blog post on Rocky Marciano, I thought I would toss in my two cents.
Ok.
He was a great fighter. Of that there is no doubt, but I still think Muhammad Ali was the greatest.
If by "
greatest" you mean that Ali internationalized boxing to a degree it previously was not then I would agree. He did for boxing what Terry Bollea (Hulk Hogan) did for professional wrestling in that regard. But frankly, I do not believe Ali was as tough as fighters from the earlier eras: men whose bodies were chiseled from a rough life and from even rougher training methods if you will.
Not only was Ali one of the fastest, if not the fastest, heavyweight...
I would say top five fastest hands is a fair analysis. (How anyone could disagree with it is beyond me.) As far as feet goes, that is a tougher read but top ten overall among the heavyweights (and fastest of the 6' plus 210 pound plus fighters) is IMHO a safe bet.
not to mention being a master at psychologically picking apart his opponent, he was by far the toughest. Who else could have gotten his jaw busted in the first round, as he did in first fight with Ken Norton in 1971, and still go the distance.
I agree that this is tough but try fighting the better part of a decade without much in the way of meals as Jersey Joe Walcott did. (From about 1930 until 1940.) He did not have the most impressive of records but of his eleven losses in that time period, most of them were because he was on the verge of passing out from hunger in the ring. Of those losses where he was not food deprived, he lost twice to Marciano, twice to Ezzard Charles, and twice to Joe Louis after that but there are caveats to many of those losses as well.
For example, no one (not even Louis) believed that Walcott lost their first fight...except the judges that is for some odd reason. In the second Louis fight, Walcott was comfortably ahead but decided to try for a knockout against Louis which was not smart. (As he was KO'ed in the eleventh round from trying to outpunch a puncher: much as Billy Conn lost his first fight to Louis for getting similarly greedy.) Walcott lost twice to Ezzard Charles after the latter was champion -the second of which he would have won if he was more aggressive from the start of the fight rather than attempting to rally late. (Whether he would have won the first fight is debatable.) This was revealed in the third fight where Walcott came out aggressive at the start and controlled the fight KO'ing Charles with his patented stealth left hook -a punch Charles never saw coming.{1}
Walcott foreshadowed Ali with the manner whereby he approached opponents: with crablike feints, backpeddling, and sudden striking right crosses and left hooks. I will deal with Charles in a moment but (in my opinion) virtually any black heavyweight of the 1930's through 1950's had it a lot rougher than Ali did outside of the ring. That translates to some degree within the ring too -indeed how can it not do so???
Ezzard Charles is another fighter who (like Walcott) rarely went to the wall as he was capable of doing but was also capable of taking a beating. In Charles' case it was because he once killed a man in the ring and it made him hesitant{2} -to a degree that he lost some fights he would have won if he was more aggressive. The Charles that fought Marciano twice was a rarely seen Charles: one with determination and purpose who studied his adversary closely for a year and a half and pinpointed weaknesses he sought to exploit. (Ala what Max Schmeling did prior to beating Joe Louis in their first fight.) The problem is, even doing this, Charles could not take out Rocky despite being one of the greatest scientific boxers who ever lived.
As far as Marciano goes, he had the biggest heart, the greatest stamina, powerful legs (from which he drew power for his punches), could
absorb hellacious punishment like a sponge, and
arguably had the hardest punch of any heavyweight who ever lived. Only Foreman, Tyson, Liston, Dempsey, Louis, Frazier, and Jeffries could legitimately be ranked with him and I know the first three could not maintain their power throughout the fight as Marciano could. (Though Joe Louis in his prime could as could Jack Dempsey.) As far as Dempsey's view of Marciano's punching power, he is quoted as noting the following about Marciano compared to himself and Joe Louis:
"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over. That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen." [Former Heavyweight Champion Jack Dempsey: Fight Magazine Fall Edition (c. 1953)]
That should suffice for dispatching with the first five. As for the others, I question Frazier's right hand and also whether or not he could sustain his power in fights that went the distance. As Marciano could (and did), to me that is the deciding factor in his favour. In the final analysis, only James Jeffries withstands scrutiny as he had power and could sustain that power much as Marciano could. From that standpoint, Marciano has one peer in this area as I see it. But Marciano's conditioning was superior overall to Jeffries and that IMHO gives him the edge when it comes to the subject of the heavyweights with the greatest punching power.
Although he lost that fight, it was an amazing feat in its own right. Nor do I think anyone else could have taken the kind of beating he took from George Foreman, arguably the hardest puncher in the history of professional boxing, in a 100+ degree heat and then knock him out in the 14th round.
You mean the eighth round. (It was Frazier who was KO'ed in the 14th in their third fight circa 1975.) Foreman had no stamina and Ali knew it. (He was like Liston in that regard.) The same could not be said of Marciano or many fighters of earlier eras like Louis, Dempsey, Jeffries, Walcott, Charles, LaStarza, Moore, Tunney, Johnson, Sullivan, etc. Marciano could not only hit a lot harder than Ali but he could outlast Ali in the ring which is no mean feat.{3} Frankly, if Ali tried to rope-a-dope Marciano he would have been knocked out and early in the fight at that.
Foreman could hit like a wrecking ball - indeed this is not even debatable. However, there is a lot more to it than just the punching power. There is also how they use that power and Foreman wasteda lot of energy and a lot of punches in the Ali fight: many of which missed and missed badly. Marciano was well conditioned enough to where that sort of approach could work but Foreman was not. Indeed, Foreman was not punching as hard in the middle rounds of that fight as he was in the earliest rounds -which brings up another subject altogether about Foreman the fighter and his relative ring intelligence in the early days.
The early Foreman (the one who fought Ali) was not a very intelligent fighter at that time. Marciano by contrast was intelligent in his own right in the ring -*far* more so than Foreman. Further still, Rocky had the brilliant strategist Charley Goldman in his corner{4} who would have deconstructed Ali's style in between rounds as he did other fighters Marciano faced. Foreman did not have such an ally in his corner. If he did, then I have no doubt he would have beaten Ali{5} provided that he actually *listened* to the cornerman{6} if the latter was of average grade. As far as Marciano goes, often his opponents explained their fights as "I was having my way until..." and from there explain the point where the wheels came off the cart for them.
The truth is, Marciano's style was a smothering one and only once in his career (the first Walcott fight) did he not set the pace for the fight or control the overall tempo.{7} Virtually none of his opponents (unlike Ali's) were ever the same after they fought him{8} -the cumulative effect of Rocky's pounding of the body and head took its toll on all of them. And that is despite the fact that Marciano missed with a lot of punches as well!!! You have to take weaknesses with strengths and a weakness of Marciano's approach was that he missed a lot and good boxers could make him look like an amateur at least some of the time. They could not however beat him as Marciano's record against some of the finest scientific boxers in history amply demomstrates.
The only significant name that sticks out at me of Ali's opponents prior to Liston who was good was Archie Moore. But Ali's TKO in the fourth in 1962 is not that impressive when you consider that Moore was anywhere from 45-59 at the time.{9} There is a reason why Ali was such a heavy underdog against Liston{10} in the first fight and it was because he had no one on his resume that was that impressive except Moore -but that was diluted significantly for reasons I have already noted.
As you brought up Foreman-Ali, it should be noted that the style of Ali's rope-a-dope was to get Foreman to punch himself out by throwing too many punches. (And by keeping enough distance between them where Foreman's blows would not have the effect they would have if Ali had let Foreman in closer: one reason why Foreman's blows were mitigated as to their effect against Ali to some extent.) This strategy worked with Foreman though I have long believed Foreman gave up in that fight and could have gone on but that is another subject altogether.{11}
Throughout his career, the purists always opined that Marciano would fall to some "scientific" or "polished" fighter or someone who "knew how to box." I see the same kinds of statements made today when people say Ali would have beaten Marciano. Frankly, I do not buy it even in Ali's case though I have no doubt it would have been a great fight if it ever could have taken place. But when Marciano was offered 1.4 million to fight Ali in 1965, he turned it down wisely because at 43 he would not have stood a chance in the boxing ring. But the Marciano from ten years earlier, I submit that he would not only have beaten Ali but perhaps more handily than it may appear on the surface when all factors are considered.{12} But I digress.
You wouldn't think that somebody with Ali's flambouyant personality and pretty-boy image that he would actually be that tough. But he was. It back in the early 1990's on a boxing tape I have. (Likewise, he said that was his least-known trait. He may have been an egotistical pompous ass, but you gotta respect somebody like that who had the balls to run the smack that he did and then step in the ring and back every word of it up.
I have no doubt that Ali was tough but are you saying that he was
as tough as Rocky??? Come on XXXXXXX, Marciano's entire fighting strategy was to get hit with a ton of punches to the body and the head and throw a ton of punches in return. Ali dodged a lot more punches than he was hit with. Rocky did not because he could not: his stature made it impossible for him to do so to say nothing of having the shortest reach of any heavyweight in history. I do not even see a comparison between the two in the "toughness" department. That brings up another strength that both men had: stamina. Ali used this weapon against punchers like Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. However, those three
combined did not have Marciano's stamina.
Indeed as no power puncher ever
trained harder than Marciano and
no heavyweight in history had more stamina than him in the ring, I find the idea that Ali would win a fight with Rocky when all factors are considered to be almost humourous. The closest Ali got to fighting someone like Marciano was his fighting of Joe Frazier. Though Frazier had the determination of a Marciano and a left hand like Rocky's as well -I would argue his left was a bit better too{13}- Frazier did not have a right hand anywhere comparable nor did he have Rocky's stamina. And even with those deficiencies, he still beat Ali once and arguably twice. And all that without having a right hand with the power of a Marciano or the Rock's stamina in the ring.
As far as Foreman goes (another blockbusting hitter that Ali faced), if Ali had tried to rope a dope Marciano, Ali would not have remotely succeeded. He lucked out against power punchers like Liston and Foreman in large part because neither of them were good ring strategists. Ali was a polished boxer certainly but he made a lot of mistakes which he was able to get by with against competitors lacking the same or similar ring smarts as he had.{14} Marciano by contrast was not a polished boxer but he was very ring savvy and Ali's sloppiness would not have panned against Marciano.
As far as cockiness goes, Ali claimed to be "the greatest" and Marciano claimed in his fighting days (and even afterwards) that he did not believe he could be beaten. History shows Marciano with no losses and Ali with five. I would argue that he should have had another to Frazier (the second of their three fights) and another to Norton (the second of their three fights). Frazier would not have beaten Marciano for reasons already noted and Norton would have fared even worse still.
Finally, we have the trainer quotient and with Angelo Dundee in his corner, Ali had an edge over many opponents in this regard. But here Marciano would counter with Charley Goldman. (Just ask Angelo if he was a better tactician than Goldman - I will give you 70-1 odds he would say no.) In summary, Ali-Marciano would be a good fight -a classic "boxer versus slugger" fight when it lasted but I do not see Ali winning in any scenario except (perhaps) if he could cut Marciano really badly and then get the fight stopped on account of blood. Other than that, on an offnight Marciano would KO Ali in the mid to late rounds or win by decision. (And on a good night, it would probably have been a third to eighth round KO depending on whether Ali ran from Marciano or acted as the pursuer.) But of course we will never know one way or the other so all of this is admittedly speculation on both of our parts.
Additional Links:
Marciano Vs Champions of Other Eras
Answering the Critics
In His Own Time
Notes:
{1} In all fairness to Ezzard Charlds, Rocky Marciano did not see Walcott's left hook coming when the latter knocked him down with a solid perfectly placed shot in the first round of their first fight: one of only two times in his career that Marciano was ever knocked down. Some experts have opined that Walcott would have KO'ed most fighters hitting them that hard and that square to the jaw (it was a wide open and perfectly placed shot) but Marciano was still up at the count of three contrary to the orders of Goldman to stay down for eight.
{2} Marciano came close a couple of times to killing a man in the ring -most notably Carmine Vingo in 1949 who Marciano always claimed hit him harder than any other fighter in his career. They fought six rounds akin to what Stallone's character in the Rocky movies and his opponents did. Vingo was knocked into a coma and almost died -indeed he received Extreme Unction that night. Marciano sought to make peace with Vingo's mother, spent all night in a prayer vigil for Vingo's recover, and donated $2500 towards his hospital bills. (This was before he was a rich man - indeed he was scraping by at this point in his career.)
{3} Angelo Dundee (Ali's trainer) is on record as saying that Marciano had the greatest stamina of any heavyweight in history.
{4} Angelo Dundee's mentor and the man who made Marciano who he was in the ring. (Rocky never would have been champion without him.)
{5} And Angelo Dundee himself said this much when discussing the fight it was fortunate for them that Liston in the first fight lacked the ring fundamentals to cut Ali off and corner him: fundamentals that Marciano I might add for his defects as a pure boxer did not lack.
{6} But Foreman was not known for doing that early in his career: a defect that cost him in Zaire.
{7} To note a few of the significant names who fought Marciano:
Rex Layne was over six feet tall and around 210 pounds. His record prior to fighting Marciano was 34-1 with 24 KO's. He was considered the next big thing in 1951 and was a 9-5 favourite against Marciano on the eve of their fight. He also dominated the first two rounds before Marciano's blows began to have an effect on him. Marciano knocked Layne down for the first time in his career in the fourth round and KO'ed in the sixth (knocked out on his feet actually.) His handlers claimed after the fight that Marciano broke two of Layne's front teeth at the gums and Layne was never remotely the same fighter after his encounter with Marciano.
Roland LaStarza was 55-8 25 KOs. Prior to his first fight with Marciano (the
only disputed fight on Marciano's resume I might add) he was 37-0 with 17 KO's and was a premiere scientific fighter. After the first fight (which he lost in a split decision) and between the second fight, he was 17-1 with 7 KO's. After their second fight (where he was completely destroyed by Marciano with the latter prolonging the fight to punish him), he was 2-4 with one KO and was a shell of his former self.
Harry Matthews was 78-4-1 57 KO's prior to fighting Marciano. After being KO's in 2 rounds by the Rock, he was 10-3 in his final 13 fights but he never was able to return to the bigtime after that night in New York City where he dominated Marciano for the better part of a round and a half only to be make two tiny mistakes which resulted in him being crushed.
Joe Louis was retired for good - KO'ed for the second time in his career and knocked off his feet through the ropes. (The referee did not even bother counting but merely signalled that it was over as Louis could not move for a while.)
After his rematch with Marciano, Walcott (53-18-1) was finished for good.
Ezzard Charles lost thirteen of the twenty-five fights he lost in his career (96-25-1 58 KOs) after his two losses to Marciano.
{8} Obviously there were swings in some of the fights back and forth - I refer here to overall tempo. (As Marciano's opponents tended to admit that he made them fight his way rather than how they would have preferred for the most part.)
{9} Moore claimed to be 38 when he fought Marciano in 1955 but not a few people claimed that he was in his early '40s at the time. (That would have put him at 56 when he fought Ali.) According to Moore's mother, he was born three years earlier and was 41 when he fought Marciano -which would have made him 59 when he fought Ali. Like Jersey Joe Walcott, there was always a mystery around the actual age of Moore but (like Walcott) he actually got better as he aged to a point.
But remember what I said about Marciano's opponents after they fought him not being the same: Moore's decline was slower -up until arguably 1958 when he fought Yvon Durelle in an eleven round slugfest (where each man was knocked down four times each) he was still formidable. However, by 1962, Moore (194-26-8, 1NC 141KO's) was a shell of his former self. He is the exception rather than the rule for Marciano's opponents.
{10} Frankly, I would argue that Liston overlooked Ali in the first fight and did not train as hard as he should have. For the second fight, I believe he was told to take a dive by certain personages who had an interest in Ali remaining champion who were not above doing unscrupulous things to see to that.
{11} This I believe was what fueled Foreman to make his comeback and reclaim the crown: the monkey on his back from the Ali fight needed to be exorcized if you will.
{12} Though if it was outside the ring in a streetfight in 1965, even at 43 I would not have bet against the Rock because he was a brawler and Ali was not.
{13} Basically you had Marciano's left hand prior to about late 1950 and after that time period. Charley Goldman did not even begin developing the left hand of Marciano until after Rocky had fought ten fights and it was not used to speak of in any fight prior to Jimmy Evans in May of 1949. Gradually Rocky developed it into a formidable weapon to where he had knockout power with both hands and the left hand factored heavily into some of his biggest fights from his KO of Carmine Vingo in December of 1949 with a left hook to his KO's of (among others) Harry Matthews and Ezzard Charles with the left hand as well. Nonetheless, Frazier may have had the best left ever -even better than Joe Louis' so he has to be given the nod here over Rocky as I see it. (As I see it, the "greatest left hook ever" competition is between Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, and James Jeffries with Marciano and Louis trailing them by a bit.)
{14}
"That jabbing and running would have made it hard for me to catch a guy like Ali, but eventually I'd get him and knock him out. Ali's a great fighter, but I think a Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey would rate ahead of him. So would Walcott. Ali makes too many mistakes, his hands are down alot, and he takes too many punches to the body." [Former Heavyweight Champion Joe Louis (circa 1980)]